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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;University to student: Endorse being &#8216;gay&#8217; or leave&#8221;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://emutalk.org/2009/04/university-to-student-endorse-being-gay-or-leave/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://emutalk.org/2009/04/university-to-student-endorse-being-gay-or-leave/</link>
	<description>Talk for and about Eastern Michigan U.</description>
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		<title>By: sitedad</title>
		<link>http://emutalk.org/2009/04/university-to-student-endorse-being-gay-or-leave/comment-page-1/#comment-54787</link>
		<dc:creator>sitedad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 13:48:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emutalk.org/?p=1502#comment-54787</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m going to close the comments on this post since I think it&#039;s time to move on.  I do think it is kind of weird though how fired-up people get about supposed discrimination against Christians and about the whole &quot;gay thing.&quot;  If this had been a Muslim student objecting to counseling a gay couple, I have a feeling Proud American et al wouldn&#039;t be posting about this.  And I&#039;ve never understood why the fact that some people are gay makes people so angry and mad.  As long as I don&#039;t have to become gay, what difference does it make to me?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m going to close the comments on this post since I think it&#8217;s time to move on.  I do think it is kind of weird though how fired-up people get about supposed discrimination against Christians and about the whole &#8220;gay thing.&#8221;  If this had been a Muslim student objecting to counseling a gay couple, I have a feeling Proud American et al wouldn&#8217;t be posting about this.  And I&#8217;ve never understood why the fact that some people are gay makes people so angry and mad.  As long as I don&#8217;t have to become gay, what difference does it make to me?</p>
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		<title>By: Proud American</title>
		<link>http://emutalk.org/2009/04/university-to-student-endorse-being-gay-or-leave/comment-page-1/#comment-54786</link>
		<dc:creator>Proud American</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 13:23:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emutalk.org/?p=1502#comment-54786</guid>
		<description>If a public university uses taxpayer money to fund their programs, they can&#039;t design them to exclude the beliefs of 80% of the population.  It can&#039;t enforce a student code of conduct that violates Federal law either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If a public university uses taxpayer money to fund their programs, they can&#8217;t design them to exclude the beliefs of 80% of the population.  It can&#8217;t enforce a student code of conduct that violates Federal law either.</p>
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		<title>By: Reasonable</title>
		<link>http://emutalk.org/2009/04/university-to-student-endorse-being-gay-or-leave/comment-page-1/#comment-54783</link>
		<dc:creator>Reasonable</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 12:32:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emutalk.org/?p=1502#comment-54783</guid>
		<description>@ proud American: I would say &quot;YES&quot; if those beliefs forced the student to violate a code of conduct, federal law, or put other students in harms way..  

I don&#039;t mean to sound like a broken record BUT: if the students beliefs were SO STRONG, they should have checked out what the program offered and what they would be doing as part of that program prior to applying to it. A private school who&#039;s belief system is more in line with the student in question would have been a better choice..  

Some accountability must rest in the student in this case...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ proud American: I would say &#8220;YES&#8221; if those beliefs forced the student to violate a code of conduct, federal law, or put other students in harms way..  </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t mean to sound like a broken record BUT: if the students beliefs were SO STRONG, they should have checked out what the program offered and what they would be doing as part of that program prior to applying to it. A private school who&#8217;s belief system is more in line with the student in question would have been a better choice..  </p>
<p>Some accountability must rest in the student in this case&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Proud American</title>
		<link>http://emutalk.org/2009/04/university-to-student-endorse-being-gay-or-leave/comment-page-1/#comment-54782</link>
		<dc:creator>Proud American</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 12:24:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emutalk.org/?p=1502#comment-54782</guid>
		<description>So do you believe the consequences of having Christian beliefs are deserving of being expelled from a public University?  Even as a professor with power over students, you can&#039;t practice viewpoint discrimination without repercussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So do you believe the consequences of having Christian beliefs are deserving of being expelled from a public University?  Even as a professor with power over students, you can&#8217;t practice viewpoint discrimination without repercussion.</p>
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		<title>By: sitedad</title>
		<link>http://emutalk.org/2009/04/university-to-student-endorse-being-gay-or-leave/comment-page-1/#comment-54741</link>
		<dc:creator>sitedad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 11:28:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emutalk.org/?p=1502#comment-54741</guid>
		<description>No, actually, individuals don&#039;t always have a right to do whatever they want, and there are lots of evidence of this.  Anyone who has ever had something that smacks of &quot;a boss&quot; is very familiar with this situation.  Or maybe a better way of putting it:  people have a right of doing whatever they want, but they have to be willing to face the consequences.

You can call it what you want, but all professors/teachers, from kindergarten on, have power over students.  The teacher sets up the assignments, the rules, assigns the grades, etc.  And while I don&#039;t think EMU is &quot;second rate,&quot; the quality of the school doesn&#039;t have much influence over this inherent power relationship one way or the other.  

I don&#039;t think this relationship doesn&#039;t enslave my students, but it does have consequences.  For example, my students can choose not to complete an assignment or a reading or something in the name of doing what they want.  But the consequence will probably be reflected in their grade in the course.

Oh, and I don&#039;t have any GAs nor any personal slaves, the &quot;power trips&quot; of an English professor are modest at best, and I enjoy the two-legged jump into the pants approach to dressing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, actually, individuals don&#8217;t always have a right to do whatever they want, and there are lots of evidence of this.  Anyone who has ever had something that smacks of &#8220;a boss&#8221; is very familiar with this situation.  Or maybe a better way of putting it:  people have a right of doing whatever they want, but they have to be willing to face the consequences.</p>
<p>You can call it what you want, but all professors/teachers, from kindergarten on, have power over students.  The teacher sets up the assignments, the rules, assigns the grades, etc.  And while I don&#8217;t think EMU is &#8220;second rate,&#8221; the quality of the school doesn&#8217;t have much influence over this inherent power relationship one way or the other.  </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think this relationship doesn&#8217;t enslave my students, but it does have consequences.  For example, my students can choose not to complete an assignment or a reading or something in the name of doing what they want.  But the consequence will probably be reflected in their grade in the course.</p>
<p>Oh, and I don&#8217;t have any GAs nor any personal slaves, the &#8220;power trips&#8221; of an English professor are modest at best, and I enjoy the two-legged jump into the pants approach to dressing.</p>
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		<title>By: Proud American</title>
		<link>http://emutalk.org/2009/04/university-to-student-endorse-being-gay-or-leave/comment-page-1/#comment-54731</link>
		<dc:creator>Proud American</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 03:18:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emutalk.org/?p=1502#comment-54731</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re so arrogant sitedad.  An individual always has the right to do or not do whatever they want.  You teach English at a second rate University for God&#039;s sake.  You put your pants on one leg at a time, just like everyone else.  Get off your power trip.  GA&#039;s are not your personal slaves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re so arrogant sitedad.  An individual always has the right to do or not do whatever they want.  You teach English at a second rate University for God&#8217;s sake.  You put your pants on one leg at a time, just like everyone else.  Get off your power trip.  GA&#8217;s are not your personal slaves.</p>
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		<title>By: sitedad</title>
		<link>http://emutalk.org/2009/04/university-to-student-endorse-being-gay-or-leave/comment-page-1/#comment-54724</link>
		<dc:creator>sitedad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 21:12:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emutalk.org/?p=1502#comment-54724</guid>
		<description>Mosh, I have no exact knowledge, and maybe someone who does know more about the program could post something.  But I would speculate it is analogous to being a graduate assistant.  

In the department I&#039;m in (English), we have graduate assistants teaching classes like English 121 (aka first year writing).  On the one hand, these GAs are teaching their own classes and are just like &quot;regular&quot; instructors or professors.  They are responsible for planning their classes, doing their own grading, getting evaluations, dealing with the classroom logistics, etc., etc.  I think we give them a lot of leeway to do what they want.  

On the other hand, they are also taking courses in writing pedagogy and they are being supervised by writing program administrators, who are faculty charged with the job.  I did this for a year a couple years ago.  This supervision is designed to give support to the GA, who generally doesn&#039;t have a lot of previous teaching experience, and it is also set up to make sure that the GA does teaching that is fitting with program goals.  In other words, without getting into the nitty-gritty of teaching writing, GA instructors can&#039;t just do anything they want.  So hypothetically, if I was the writing program administrator and I had a graduate assistant who &quot;refused&quot; for some reason to do some part of the job based on moral/ethical/religious/political/whatever reasons, then I&#039;d probably have a problem and I might not want to continue that GA relationship.  

What I&#039;m saying is the graduate assistant teaching first year writing is both a teacher AND a student, meaning they aren&#039;t quite as empowered to do whatever they want.  And I would guess that the student in the counseling program is also both a counselor AND a student and can thus not refuse to do or not do whatever they want.  

But like I said, this is mostly an educated guess; maybe someone from that program who knows better can set me straight.  So to speak.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mosh, I have no exact knowledge, and maybe someone who does know more about the program could post something.  But I would speculate it is analogous to being a graduate assistant.  </p>
<p>In the department I&#8217;m in (English), we have graduate assistants teaching classes like English 121 (aka first year writing).  On the one hand, these GAs are teaching their own classes and are just like &#8220;regular&#8221; instructors or professors.  They are responsible for planning their classes, doing their own grading, getting evaluations, dealing with the classroom logistics, etc., etc.  I think we give them a lot of leeway to do what they want.  </p>
<p>On the other hand, they are also taking courses in writing pedagogy and they are being supervised by writing program administrators, who are faculty charged with the job.  I did this for a year a couple years ago.  This supervision is designed to give support to the GA, who generally doesn&#8217;t have a lot of previous teaching experience, and it is also set up to make sure that the GA does teaching that is fitting with program goals.  In other words, without getting into the nitty-gritty of teaching writing, GA instructors can&#8217;t just do anything they want.  So hypothetically, if I was the writing program administrator and I had a graduate assistant who &#8220;refused&#8221; for some reason to do some part of the job based on moral/ethical/religious/political/whatever reasons, then I&#8217;d probably have a problem and I might not want to continue that GA relationship.  </p>
<p>What I&#8217;m saying is the graduate assistant teaching first year writing is both a teacher AND a student, meaning they aren&#8217;t quite as empowered to do whatever they want.  And I would guess that the student in the counseling program is also both a counselor AND a student and can thus not refuse to do or not do whatever they want.  </p>
<p>But like I said, this is mostly an educated guess; maybe someone from that program who knows better can set me straight.  So to speak.</p>
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		<title>By: mosh</title>
		<link>http://emutalk.org/2009/04/university-to-student-endorse-being-gay-or-leave/comment-page-1/#comment-54720</link>
		<dc:creator>mosh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 20:34:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emutalk.org/?p=1502#comment-54720</guid>
		<description>Sitedad - What are the distinctions between students and practicing counselors?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sitedad &#8211; What are the distinctions between students and practicing counselors?</p>
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		<title>By: Zombie Reagen</title>
		<link>http://emutalk.org/2009/04/university-to-student-endorse-being-gay-or-leave/comment-page-1/#comment-54719</link>
		<dc:creator>Zombie Reagen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 19:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emutalk.org/?p=1502#comment-54719</guid>
		<description>JOE, JEFF, and PROUD AMERICAN make Zombie Reagen feel hunger that dare not speak its name.  Zombie Reagen party with LOG CABIN REPUBLICANS to satisfy THAT hunger.

Maybe JOE, JEFF, and PROUD AMERICAN come out of closet and have Teabag Party with Zombie Reagen soon.

Zombie Reagen love to teabag JOE, JEFF, and PROUD AMERICAN.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JOE, JEFF, and PROUD AMERICAN make Zombie Reagen feel hunger that dare not speak its name.  Zombie Reagen party with LOG CABIN REPUBLICANS to satisfy THAT hunger.</p>
<p>Maybe JOE, JEFF, and PROUD AMERICAN come out of closet and have Teabag Party with Zombie Reagen soon.</p>
<p>Zombie Reagen love to teabag JOE, JEFF, and PROUD AMERICAN.</p>
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		<title>By: Proud American</title>
		<link>http://emutalk.org/2009/04/university-to-student-endorse-being-gay-or-leave/comment-page-1/#comment-54673</link>
		<dc:creator>Proud American</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 17:16:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emutalk.org/?p=1502#comment-54673</guid>
		<description>This is exactly the type of thing I predicted would happen back in the fall when Pres. Sue Martin brought her &quot;Beyond Tolerance&quot; tent to the campus - back when sitedad and Prof. Higabee both disagreed with me.  EMU is going to lose this lawsuit.  Religious rights are a federally protected class while the Supreme Court of our nation has already ruled that homosexuality is not.  Sexual attraction is not a choice, but sexual behavior of humans is always a choice - except in cases of rape.  Many Pro-life physicians do choose to be Obstetricians and cannot be compelled to perform abortions.  EMU cannot discriminate against persons with sincerely held religious beliefs that are consistent with the last 2000 years of history and deny persons of certain faiths the right to study in particular fields.  Race is not comparable to sexuality.  The Federal government will be forced to withhold all funding if EMU persists in their discrimination against religious beliefs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is exactly the type of thing I predicted would happen back in the fall when Pres. Sue Martin brought her &#8220;Beyond Tolerance&#8221; tent to the campus &#8211; back when sitedad and Prof. Higabee both disagreed with me.  EMU is going to lose this lawsuit.  Religious rights are a federally protected class while the Supreme Court of our nation has already ruled that homosexuality is not.  Sexual attraction is not a choice, but sexual behavior of humans is always a choice &#8211; except in cases of rape.  Many Pro-life physicians do choose to be Obstetricians and cannot be compelled to perform abortions.  EMU cannot discriminate against persons with sincerely held religious beliefs that are consistent with the last 2000 years of history and deny persons of certain faiths the right to study in particular fields.  Race is not comparable to sexuality.  The Federal government will be forced to withhold all funding if EMU persists in their discrimination against religious beliefs.</p>
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