On the “Freeze my tuition-please!” post, an anonymous commentator raises some good questions about who we admit to EMU and how few students we graduate:
I know this is kind of off topic but seeing as some have spoken about enrollment I was wondering as a citizen of Ypsilanti and EMU student if there has been any talk about raising entrance standards at EMU.
I know many of us would say that in this economy the more the students the better but at what cost. I now have friends that will not send their children to EMU because the crime and general opinion of the University. That makes me extremely sad as I take a lot of pride in EMU and the education I have recieved from its many fine professors.
I recently spoke with an admissions employee who will remain nameless, I directed my question to her and she responded that “EMU is committed to diversity” and therefore will not raise standards.
I know many of you have been around the University for quite a while and as someone who has two degrees from EMU I think its fair to say that the quality of the student in terms of ability when entering EMU has dropped significantly.
I worked at EMU a few years back and was told during the orientation that EMU graduates only 33 percent of all students who ever enter the University. Could some one please tell me what that has to do with diversity? A couple of us posed that question to the person giving the speech and she only gave us ways that as employees we could help with retention.
I’m wondering that if we were better screening our applicants it may be possible to improve our graduation rate by making sure those that come to EMU are better prepared to succeed.
It’s a fair question/point that I thought deserved its own post.
I’m no expert in higher ed admissions and graduation rates, but I’ll take a shot at the beginnings of an answer:
- These rate of graduation percentages are very slippery. It’s not that hard to find at least one example of an EMU undergrad graduation rate of 41%, which is not great but quite a bit higher than 33%.
- EMU has a lot of students who seem to be on the “8-10 year” plan. There are a bunch of different reasons for this: students who can only afford to take two or three classes a term, and also bad advising which results in students piling up a lot of credits they don’t really need. Anyway, I am guessing if you calculate graduation rates within 10 years, the numbers go up quite a bit.
- EMU has A LOT of commuting students, especially compared to universities like Central and Western. I would bet that this disparity has a big impact on overall graduation rates at EMU– maybe even skews that data. For example, take a look at this little chart from some web site at Central Michigan (scroll down to the bottom): the six year graduation rate of CMU students who are from “underrepresented groups” and who are “off-campus” (I presume that means commuters) is around 30%. That’s not very good.
- Take this with a grain of salt since I have no idea how reliable “Campus Corner” is (it’s the first thing that came up this morning, and I need to wrap up my teaching this semester instead of researching this stuff), but according to them, EMU, WMU, and CMU are pretty similar. EMU has an average GPA of 3.08 and ACT score of 20; WMU has an average GPA of 3.22 and ACT score of 22; CMU has an average GPA of 3.33 and ACT of 21. To me, those numbers suggest three universities that are pretty similar, especially if you compare them to the University of Michigan data on this site: an average GPA of 3.75 and ACT of 28.
- BTW, if you factor Wayne State University into this, EMU starts to look quite a bit better: an average GPA of 3.2, ACT of 20, and a graduation rate of 32%
- I’ve always thought of EMU as an “opportunity granting” institution. We give a lot of students what amounts to a “second chance.” To me, this means we admit a lot of students who didn’t do great in high school or who went off to college and screwed up and want to come back. Now, this is a mission I think is important and noble, but there are three problems with it. First, it has a way of making people think that EMU is not a “real” university (when, of course, it is). Second, there is a definite down-side to admitting students who are a higher risk: a lot of these students need quite a bit more support in the form of smaller classes and hands-on tutoring and other academic support. That kind of support is expensive and that kind of support has been reduced by budget cuts over the years. And third, no matter what you do, admitting a lot of “higher risk” students means you are going to have a lot more students not make it. The opportunity to succeed has to be accompanied by the opportunity to fail.
- Should EMU raise its entrance standards? Well, if the most important statistic that EMU needs to raise is graduation rates, then the answer clearly is yes. But that’s not what EMU (or WMU or CMU or Wayne State for that matter) are really about.
- Last but not least, there is a reality of bodies: if EMU (and WMU, CMU, Wayne State, etc.) were to be more selective in its entrance standards, then EMU (and these other universities) would see a dramatic drop in the number of students attending. Given deep budget cuts and everything else, that really isn’t much of an option.
More than my two cents; what do people who actually know about this stuff think?
Great research SiteDad! I applaud you!
I agree, that is great research. But as far as EMU being an “oppurtunity granting” institution, that should be left to the community colleges. At risks students must first have to spend a few years in a community college, get their grades up then transfer to a university like EMU. If EMU is to ever be respected as a “real university”, higher admission standards must be a goal. An average g.p.a of 3.02 is a bit too low. EMU should try hard to promote itself more as a “repectable school” and should strive to attract more “quality” students. With a new administration in place, I hope this is a goal.
Kudo’s on the info gathering!
As someone in EMU Admissions once said “We (EMU) are in the ‘selling’ business; unlike UofM who are selective ‘gatekeepers’…” thus why our standards are lower. If we raised our standards, we’d be viewed as a more credible University, but also shrink our student population due to their ability to not meet the GPA/requirements..
I think it’s a good idea in general to send students to community colleges to get their basic ed requirements and then go to a specialized school for the remaining 2+ years..
Eh, a google search for “graduation rate michigan,” that’s all. Easy enough to find this kind of stuff.
Jackie, I think there has been a lot of shifting of gen ed stuff to community colleges, and there has been a lot developmental/”remedial” classes at CC for a long time. But I don’t think shifting off all of that stuff lower down the food chain is much of a solution. College teachers complain about high schools and the unprepared students; high school teachers complain about middle school teachers and unprepared students; and so on.
I think it would be great for EMU to improve its admission standards, but I guess I want to repeat one point and make another. First, keep in mind that EMU’s average GPA as reported from this site is about the same as as CMU, WMU, and Wayne State. If we are “that kind of school,” respectable but not elite, then I think we’re probably about right.
But second, let’s have a little thought experiment. Let’s say that EMU and comparable institutions all of a sudden could raise its entrance standards significantly and actually afford to do that. The impact of that would be that in Michigan alone, tens of thousands of students would not have the chance of trying to succeed in a university because they “just weren’t good enough.” Given that Michigan already has one of the lowest percentages of college graduates in the U.S., do we really want to do that?
BTW, I graduated from high school with a 3.0. Graduated from the University of Iowa with about a 3.3, I think….
Jackie:
As far back as I can remember Eastern has been a school of opportunity. Some old and respected faculty members are very proud of this fact. That does not mean I agree. The last VP for Enrollment, Tom Green, took a plan to the Board of Regents to improve EMU’s academic standing to transform the student body and was basically told to go away. The Regents told him that Eastern was a school of opportunity. The change has to start at the top with the Regents.
I have heard of good students failing out many times, and also know of bad students who got their act together thanks to the support of their peers and teachers here. It goes both ways, so it is probably really tough to judge exactly how well a student will do in college based on test scores and high school grades.
I guess i’m just speaking from the standpoint of a future EMU alum, who loves his university, and is sadden when I hear negativity about it, especially when it comes to EMU’s quality as an institution. When i mention admissions standards, i’m not saying that it has to be up to the level of a UofM, but as far as schools like WMU, CMU, or Wayne State, i just wish that the administrtion of EMU would see the benefit of at least striving to be the best of that group. Alum mention Tom Green, the former VP for enrollment, if that is true, he had a great idea. It is not impossible for a school to improve its prestige, and its starts with the recruitment of quality students. I know, this goal isnt quickly achieved. Some the scandals that have hit EMU recently certainly doesnt help, as well as some of the piss poor leadership this school has had out of its last few presidents. But if things stay the same….things stay the same, perceptions wont change unless decisions are actually made to change them.
I think that EMU is a quality institution period and that students get a great education here.
Of course it is. I definitely agree with that, man
Another comment about graduation rates: Many of the “statistics” do not include transfer students, which will always put EMU behind a school like UM because we have more transfer students (and they do graduate).
I am a proud EMU graduate. I had a great time there, met a lot of awesome people, and got an education well worth the money spent. However, EMU does need to raise their standards for incoming students, period. There is something to be said for a university that is more concerned with quaNtity of their student body, than quaLity. Also, to imply that a higher GPA standard would compromise the diversity that EMU is so obsessed with, is a little insulting to minorities.
However, transfer students do not count toward the graduation rate.
@ Alum: you are right and I hope that changes in the future.. EMU numbers would be higher if they did and that could aid in our recruitment and general perceptions about our school.
Let me just say that we are an opportunity granting institution! I graduated H.S. with a 2.7 (yes I just found my last transcript! 1985) After a few failed attempts at college I came to EMU, where I graduated TWICE– B.A. and M.A with honors! Went on to get a PH.D. and now teach. It was because of the faculty at EMU–they took a chance on me, provided me with support and encouragement. My story is not unique, we do this every single day. I think the problem is two-fold. First, we need to identify those at risk students earlier, like when they are admitted. Second, we need to mandate that they ‘use’ the support services. Waiting for them to get put on academic probation before making requirements is too late. Also, it is not enough to let them know about the services. I think some of this is already in play, but of course all of this depends on having the funding to provide the services.
I did my undergrad at Michigan State and I am working towards my master’s at EMU. (3.4 GPA, 27 ACT high school) (3.5 640 GMAT undergrad) The biggest difference between EMU and an institution like Michigan State is indeed in the students but it is in their outlook not necessarily their quality. I do not put that much stock in GPAs because different schools will attract different types of students (ex. Engineering Schools will typically have applicants with Higher GPAs) However, with EMU having a commuter base of students from the local area they some how perceive not going away to school to be inferior. I remember when I was 18 and I wanted to go away too! This inherit belief within the student body leads them to answer the question “Where do you go to school?” with the answer “I just go to Eastern”, ” I’m going to Eastern but I hope to transfer” or my favorite just say “EMU” and look at the floor. These obviously are all negative. The students lack the pride because they have no real standard of comparison. I live an hour away from campus. Oakland, Wayne, UDM, UM-Dearborn, LTU are all within 30 minutes from my home. I did the research for over a year with all the interviews, campus and classroom visits and chose to come to EMU. If the students were to market themselves and the school with a more positive outlook and understanding then it would benefit us all. But you just gotta believe! And I can say this with complete honesty and total conviction, I am proud to attend EMU and I believe that my education and experiences take a back seat to no one!
If more students were to share positive statements with the people that they meet, the application rate would naturally increase thus achieving the original post’s desired results.
Let’s be proud, we’ve earned it.
Carterman, I am sure that the stories you tell about some students having negative views of EMU, my impression of EMU students’ overall views of their school is quite different. Most EMU students, by an overwhelming margin, are both exceedingly proud of EMU, proud of what they accomplish here, and also fervent advocates of EMU doing even better. That’s a pretty good mix, I’d say — indeed, they are the markings of what is required for a healthy democratic society.
I would like to share a personal anecdote. I graduated High School with a 2.2 GPA. My ACT and SAT scores were very good (over 1400), but I had not applied myself. I was admitted to Eastern Michigan University, and due to poor performance was dismissed after 2 years. I was readmitted after a year and went on to have a 3.8 average for the rest of undergrad. Since then I have come back to Eastern for my Master’s degree. I was able to get full funding. I received a 4.0 GPA for my Master’s and will be starting at the University of Texas in Austin in the Fall. UT is one of the TOP 3 schools in my discipline. Without the opportunities Eastern provided me, I may not have even been able to attend college. Coursework and academic rigor should remain the gatekeepers at Eastern, not Admissions