Comments for EMUtalk.org http://emutalk.org Talk for and about Eastern Michigan U. Wed, 23 May 2012 21:40:21 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 Comment on “Fiscal study: Michigan athletics are self-reliant; MSU is close” by Carterman http://emutalk.org/2012/05/fiscal-study-michigan-athletics-are-self-reliant-msu-is-close/comment-page-1/#comment-81303 Carterman Wed, 23 May 2012 21:40:21 +0000 http://emutalk.org/?p=4173#comment-81303 Higbee, As a brother of two sisters one who graduated with a degree in"secondary education" and one with a "elementary education" major, I am well aware of the academic offerings of the university. I am not privy to the archives to know what academic programs were offered in the early 20th century of which I was referring. So often I hear terms such as "free market" thrown around by academics especially in regards to programs they do not endorse, I find this comical. I remember looking at my undergraduate curriculum and wondering why I would have to pay for all these unecessary classes that did not pertain to my major. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that I did. However, my parents even questioned the virtues of some of my electives and liberal arts requirements. I also am well acquainted with Title 9 but for the purposes of our discussion I will leave it alone. What could we do with the money if the English department were reduced to teaching Comp 1 and 2. History curriculum reduced to U.S. history and International History. The point is if we were to turn to the free market to support our university essentially we would become a career college. and without the unions obviously! Higbee,
As a brother of two sisters one who graduated with a degree in”secondary education” and one with a “elementary education” major, I am well aware of the academic offerings of the university. I am not privy to the archives to know what academic programs were offered in the early 20th century of which I was referring. So often I hear terms such as “free market” thrown around by academics especially in regards to programs they do not endorse, I find this comical. I remember looking at my undergraduate curriculum and wondering why I would have to pay for all these unecessary classes that did not pertain to my major. Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad that I did. However, my parents even questioned the virtues of some of my electives and liberal arts requirements. I also am well acquainted with Title 9 but for the purposes of our discussion I will leave it alone.
What could we do with the money if the English department were reduced to teaching Comp 1 and 2. History curriculum reduced to U.S. history and International History. The point is if we were to turn to the free market to support our university essentially we would become a career college. and without the unions obviously!

]]> Comment on “Is College Too Easy?” by Mark Higbee http://emutalk.org/2012/05/is-college-too-easy/comment-page-1/#comment-81302 Mark Higbee Wed, 23 May 2012 21:21:59 +0000 http://emutalk.org/?p=4176#comment-81302 Derek Bok's great book "OUR UNDERACHIEVING COLLEGES," published in 2006, argues convincingly that, for the money invested, too many students learn too little in college and do too little engaged work. Most classrooms feature mostly professors' performing and no active learning; and yet most learning is done directly, by active learning. Nearly every institution in American society has undergone tremendous changes in the last few decades -- except the undergraduate aspect of colleges and universities. The status quo of undergraduate education is under broad and sustained critique. Can it hold? I don't know, but betting that it will endure without upheaval isn't smart. Yet, EMU and other universities are betting on the status quo lasting. The big cut in state appropriations last year could be a sign of things to come. Derek Bok’s great book “OUR UNDERACHIEVING COLLEGES,” published in 2006, argues convincingly that, for the money invested, too many students learn too little in college and do too little engaged work. Most classrooms feature mostly professors’ performing and no active learning; and yet most learning is done directly, by active learning.

Nearly every institution in American society has undergone tremendous changes in the last few decades — except the undergraduate aspect of colleges and universities. The status quo of undergraduate education is under broad and sustained critique. Can it hold? I don’t know, but betting that it will endure without upheaval isn’t smart. Yet, EMU and other universities are betting on the status quo lasting. The big cut in state appropriations last year could be a sign of things to come.

]]> Comment on “Fiscal study: Michigan athletics are self-reliant; MSU is close” by Mark Higbee http://emutalk.org/2012/05/fiscal-study-michigan-athletics-are-self-reliant-msu-is-close/comment-page-1/#comment-81301 Mark Higbee Wed, 23 May 2012 21:11:04 +0000 http://emutalk.org/?p=4173#comment-81301 Hey Carterman, Your passionate defense of EMU football is sincere, no doubt, but as for the costs of football, it's by far the most expensive sport EMU, or other schools, field. The basketball teams are the next most expensive. And much of the other teams' costs are truly incurred in order to continue EMU's "investment" in football. Why? Title IX's requirement of gender equity; the all male football team requires a lot of other teams with women. Hence what's called "roster management," in which women are recruiting for, say, crew, and a very large team is maintained even though many teammates aren't ever in competition. The NCAA permits this trickery. And football has more "hidden" costs than other teams. At OSU, the Student Affairs division had full time employees whose sole job was to take care of football uniforms, but that expense was NOT billed to athletics. So too are much of EMU's actual athletic costs aren't billed to athletics. So, it's not a great exaggeration to say most of our $23 million subsidy to athletics is for football. Football is a great game, but very expensive -- and our society most values the football teams that can survive in the "free market" without extracting hugh subsidies from college students! When surveyed, high school students who have an interest in attending EMU almost never give athletics or football specifically as a reason they are interested in EMU. Football, in a word, has close to zero positive public appeal for EMU --- and frequently EMU football brings ridicule on to EMU and EMU alumni. EMU's attempt, for 40 years, to become a serious football school, has cost hundreds of millions of dollars and contributed nothing that can be demonstrated with facts to the school's reputation or funding sources. By the way -- EMU has no "education" major though we do have a number of majors with our College of Education --- as well as scores of other majors around the campus. Contrary to your fear that without football we'd only have one major. All the best to you! MH Hey Carterman,
Your passionate defense of EMU football is sincere, no doubt, but as for the costs of football, it’s by far the most expensive sport EMU, or other schools, field. The basketball teams are the next most expensive. And much of the other teams’ costs are truly incurred in order to continue EMU’s “investment” in football. Why? Title IX’s requirement of gender equity; the all male football team requires a lot of other teams with women. Hence what’s called “roster management,” in which women are recruiting for, say, crew, and a very large team is maintained even though many teammates aren’t ever in competition. The NCAA permits this trickery. And football has more “hidden” costs than other teams. At OSU, the Student Affairs division had full time employees whose sole job was to take care of football uniforms, but that expense was NOT billed to athletics. So too are much of EMU’s actual athletic costs aren’t billed to athletics. So, it’s not a great exaggeration to say most of our $23 million subsidy to athletics is for football.

Football is a great game, but very expensive — and our society most values the football teams that can survive in the “free market” without extracting hugh subsidies from college students!

When surveyed, high school students who have an interest in attending EMU almost never give athletics or football specifically as a reason they are interested in EMU. Football, in a word, has close to zero positive public appeal for EMU — and frequently EMU football brings ridicule on to EMU and EMU alumni. EMU’s attempt, for 40 years, to become a serious football school, has cost hundreds of millions of dollars and contributed nothing that can be demonstrated with facts to the school’s reputation or funding sources.

By the way — EMU has no “education” major though we do have a number of majors with our College of Education — as well as scores of other majors around the campus. Contrary to your fear that without football we’d only have one major.

All the best to you! MH

]]> Comment on “Fiscal study: Michigan athletics are self-reliant; MSU is close” by sitedad http://emutalk.org/2012/05/fiscal-study-michigan-athletics-are-self-reliant-msu-is-close/comment-page-1/#comment-81300 sitedad Wed, 23 May 2012 21:10:11 +0000 http://emutalk.org/?p=4173#comment-81300 I suppose we could figure out specifically how much football costs versus these other sports, but I think you're missing the basic point here, Carterman: is it worth it for EMU to spend that much money on football in particular and maybe even athletics in general. I think the answer is generally no, especially at a time when higher education is being pressured from all quarters to make an education more affordable. I mean, one obvious way to make higher ed more affordable is to cut out some of the unnecessary expenses, and high on that list at EMU (and most universities) is sports. I would add to that list spending too much money on facilities designed to make colleges more "resort" or "shopping mall" -like, such as super-plush dorms, state of the art workout facilities, and elaborate student centers. Though frankly, we don't have much in the way of super-plush dorms, workout facilities are kind of crappy, and I think our student center (along with a previous big expense, the convocation center) more or less pays for itself from renting out space and the like. But I digress. You might not have used the library or the science center or the remodeled Pray-Harrold or what-have-you as part of your specific educational experiences, Carterman, but all of those infrastructure improvements to EMU are vastly more useful and valuable to the educational mission of the institution. Lots and lots of great colleges and universities have no football and/or not much emphasis in sports and instead emphasize, you know, education. And while I will agree that maybe football and the like plays a significant part in the "student life" at a place like U of M or MSU, the only people who come to EMU because of its football program are football players. Personally, I'd like to see the kind of athletic system that takes place in pretty much the rest of the world and at places like EMU for sports that aren't on scholarship: club teams. But that too is perhaps a different topic. I suppose we could figure out specifically how much football costs versus these other sports, but I think you’re missing the basic point here, Carterman: is it worth it for EMU to spend that much money on football in particular and maybe even athletics in general. I think the answer is generally no, especially at a time when higher education is being pressured from all quarters to make an education more affordable.

I mean, one obvious way to make higher ed more affordable is to cut out some of the unnecessary expenses, and high on that list at EMU (and most universities) is sports. I would add to that list spending too much money on facilities designed to make colleges more “resort” or “shopping mall” -like, such as super-plush dorms, state of the art workout facilities, and elaborate student centers. Though frankly, we don’t have much in the way of super-plush dorms, workout facilities are kind of crappy, and I think our student center (along with a previous big expense, the convocation center) more or less pays for itself from renting out space and the like. But I digress.

You might not have used the library or the science center or the remodeled Pray-Harrold or what-have-you as part of your specific educational experiences, Carterman, but all of those infrastructure improvements to EMU are vastly more useful and valuable to the educational mission of the institution. Lots and lots of great colleges and universities have no football and/or not much emphasis in sports and instead emphasize, you know, education. And while I will agree that maybe football and the like plays a significant part in the “student life” at a place like U of M or MSU, the only people who come to EMU because of its football program are football players.

Personally, I’d like to see the kind of athletic system that takes place in pretty much the rest of the world and at places like EMU for sports that aren’t on scholarship: club teams. But that too is perhaps a different topic.

]]> Comment on “Fiscal study: Michigan athletics are self-reliant; MSU is close” by Curious http://emutalk.org/2012/05/fiscal-study-michigan-athletics-are-self-reliant-msu-is-close/comment-page-1/#comment-81296 Curious Wed, 23 May 2012 20:17:02 +0000 http://emutalk.org/?p=4173#comment-81296 "Eastern Michigan, which had $27,717,621 in revenue and $25,971,066 in spending, received $22,764,471 in subsidies (82.1%)." It's from the article which started this thread. “Eastern Michigan, which had $27,717,621 in revenue and $25,971,066 in spending, received $22,764,471 in subsidies (82.1%).” It’s from the article which started this thread.

]]> Comment on “Fiscal study: Michigan athletics are self-reliant; MSU is close” by Carterman http://emutalk.org/2012/05/fiscal-study-michigan-athletics-are-self-reliant-msu-is-close/comment-page-1/#comment-81295 Carterman Wed, 23 May 2012 19:37:21 +0000 http://emutalk.org/?p=4173#comment-81295 I am aware that the $1000 per student figure is based upon the simple division of students to the overall athletic budget but that the point I was trying to make to CURIOUS. He was referring to the football program with those numbers. Funny how that always become the debate. Somehow the other 19 sports at EMU become exempt. I graduated from the college of business. My education was not added to or influenced by the new teaching dome or the entire new Science building at all but somehow I figure I paid some for it. The debate really should be what in the end we aspire to be at Eastern. Let's keep kicking the football team. They are there for the entire community to appreciate and take part in adding to the overall student experience. So is the Library, Student Union, IM buildings, student organizations and many other activities that are funded in part by the general fund but are not utilized by the majority of the student body. The way this debate has transpired ends with us back to being the "Normalites" again with one building and a singular education major. I am aware that the $1000 per student figure is based upon the simple division of students to the overall athletic budget but that the point I was trying to make to CURIOUS. He was referring to the football program with those numbers. Funny how that always become the debate. Somehow the other 19 sports at EMU become exempt. I graduated from the college of business. My education was not added to or influenced by the new teaching dome or the entire new Science building at all but somehow I figure I paid some for it. The debate really should be what in the end we aspire to be at Eastern. Let’s keep kicking the football team. They are there for the entire community to appreciate and take part in adding to the overall student experience. So is the Library, Student Union, IM buildings, student organizations and many other activities that are funded in part by the general fund but are not utilized by the majority of the student body. The way this debate has transpired ends with us back to being the “Normalites” again with one building and a singular education major.

]]> Comment on “Fiscal study: Michigan athletics are self-reliant; MSU is close” by End User http://emutalk.org/2012/05/fiscal-study-michigan-athletics-are-self-reliant-msu-is-close/comment-page-1/#comment-81294 End User Wed, 23 May 2012 19:00:14 +0000 http://emutalk.org/?p=4173#comment-81294 Carterman: Claire cites the raw data in her post towards the top of the page. It's not football-only, but provides the expenses and revenues for the athletic department as a whole. The bottom line is that ~$21.2 million from University funds (which I would guess is mostly "real" money collected from tuition dollars, followed distantly by "fake" money from the University paying itself for the athletic scholarships) and ~$1.57 million directly from student fees were spent on athletics at EMU in 2011. Divide through by the number of students and you get a figure of around $1000 per student spent by the University on athletics. I'm not taking a stance here on whether or not that's a good or a bad thing, but those are the facts. Carterman:
Claire cites the raw data in her post towards the top of the page. It’s not football-only, but provides the expenses and revenues for the athletic department as a whole. The bottom line is that ~$21.2 million from University funds (which I would guess is mostly “real” money collected from tuition dollars, followed distantly by “fake” money from the University paying itself for the athletic scholarships) and ~$1.57 million directly from student fees were spent on athletics at EMU in 2011. Divide through by the number of students and you get a figure of around $1000 per student spent by the University on athletics. I’m not taking a stance here on whether or not that’s a good or a bad thing, but those are the facts.

]]> Comment on “Fiscal study: Michigan athletics are self-reliant; MSU is close” by carterman1 http://emutalk.org/2012/05/fiscal-study-michigan-athletics-are-self-reliant-msu-is-close/comment-page-1/#comment-81289 carterman1 Wed, 23 May 2012 16:34:22 +0000 http://emutalk.org/?p=4173#comment-81289 Hey curious, Your snarky comment is neither warranted or appreciated. Please show me where the EMU football budget is 25 million per year. I would burn in hell rather than grace the sidelines of the school to the west as I have found that their attitude and arrogance mimics yours. So site your source or be happy with your ignorance! Hey curious,

Your snarky comment is neither warranted or appreciated. Please show me where the EMU football budget is 25 million per year. I would burn in hell rather than grace the sidelines of the school to the west as I have found that their attitude and arrogance mimics yours. So site your source or be happy with your ignorance!

]]> Comment on “Fiscal study: Michigan athletics are self-reliant; MSU is close” by Curious http://emutalk.org/2012/05/fiscal-study-michigan-athletics-are-self-reliant-msu-is-close/comment-page-1/#comment-81287 Curious Wed, 23 May 2012 15:29:14 +0000 http://emutalk.org/?p=4173#comment-81287 As far as the $1,000 figure is concerned, it's called, "arithmetic." The figure is closer to $1,100. You are likely in a tiny minority of people who don't mind being forced each term to pay good money for something that has no affect on your academic or professional life. Looking for a job? Your potential employer will be looking at your transcript, not at how many, many football losses your school's team suffered last year. The people in the sparsely-filled stadium were handed free tickets. How's that for school spirit? If you want high-level college football, drive a dozen miles west to Ann Arbor. And be prepared to pay through the nose for that privilege. As far as the $1,000 figure is concerned, it’s called, “arithmetic.” The figure is closer to $1,100. You are likely in a tiny minority of people who don’t mind being forced each term to pay good money for something that has no affect on your academic or professional life. Looking for a job? Your potential employer will be looking at your transcript, not at how many, many football losses your school’s team suffered last year. The people in the sparsely-filled stadium were handed free tickets. How’s that for school spirit? If you want high-level college football, drive a dozen miles west to Ann Arbor. And be prepared to pay through the nose for that privilege.

]]> Comment on “Is College Too Easy?” by grady http://emutalk.org/2012/05/is-college-too-easy/comment-page-1/#comment-81286 grady Wed, 23 May 2012 14:42:07 +0000 http://emutalk.org/?p=4176#comment-81286 I would modify the writing comments to communications challenges. While I have seen the quality of composition drop in the last 10 years, I have seen a complete drop off of the cliff in basic communication skills with the students (and this is only going to get worse.) They hate email - which is fine - but the world still runs on email. You dont text your boss a project or Facebook your clients price quotes. Beyond that, basic, one-on-one skills are gone (for obvious reasons) and many students cannot even send a message to their professor w.o using text slang and they do not know how to organize thoughts. They communicate in fragments because that is what they know. This is likely a nationwide issue and EMU (and others) would be smart to mandate a basic communication/English course to all incoming freshman. Its scary when international students, with broken English, can communicate more effectively than freshman from good high schools. We can acknowledge this is an issue and adapt and teach them more or lower our standards to adapt. I would modify the writing comments to communications challenges. While I have seen the quality of composition drop in the last 10 years, I have seen a complete drop off of the cliff in basic communication skills with the students (and this is only going to get worse.) They hate email – which is fine – but the world still runs on email. You dont text your boss a project or Facebook your clients price quotes. Beyond that, basic, one-on-one skills are gone (for obvious reasons) and many students cannot even send a message to their professor w.o using text slang and they do not know how to organize thoughts. They communicate in fragments because that is what they know. This is likely a nationwide issue and EMU (and others) would be smart to mandate a basic communication/English course to all incoming freshman. Its scary when international students, with broken English, can communicate more effectively than freshman from good high schools. We can acknowledge this is an issue and adapt and teach them more or lower our standards to adapt.

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